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Why I like dinner dates |
I consider myself a great observer of people. I fascinate myself endlessly by creating stories for the people I see. That dude over there, sitting and feeding the pigeons, he’s a retired Navy officer who just lost a game of Battleship. That woman wearing a black turtleneck works as an internet executive. Her twelve year old daughter loves soccer but, I’m afraid, is not very good, and that annoys her competitive mother. That middle age couple sitting in the window of the coffee shop just started dating. How do I know? Because only newly-dating couples want to see each other under so much light.
Years ago I started to incorporate my imagination into my dating lifestyle. Sitting at dinner I would find some interesting people and point them out to my date. “I wonder what the story is with them. Whadya think?”
Together we would come up with our ideas for them. Sometimes we would agree and sometimes not. Sometimes our stories would become outlandish and sometimes ordinary. But here’s the kicker. Once we had our ideas, one of us would have to walk over and find out the true story.
This always felt dangerous. “Excuse me sir, my date over there and I were just wondering… see you look interesting to us and we were trying to figure out exactly what you and your lovely companion here are all about. Because we have our own ideas, and curiosity being what it is, we had to ask. Don’t feel you have to answer. It may be none of our business. But what’s your story?
Approaching people in a humble but direct way like this almost always works well. I met some fun characters doing this and I have yet to meet a woman who is not impressed by a guy who has the courage to approach strangers at dinner. Its exciting. It’s fun. It’s kinda sexy.
Too many guys, in the community and elsewhere, think of dinner dates as antiquated. Somehow they associate them with supplication or ‘interview’ dates. I think this thinking is mistaken. Think of dinner not as dinner but as dinner-theatre. The table is a stage and you and your date are the principle dancers. Dinner is an opportunity to create a shared experience in a safe environment, and demonstrate your social skills, with the staff and other random… victims, ahem. And let’s face it, eating is as close to sex your likely to get in public. No pickle jokes please. And after dinner comes desert - ice cream floating in Claret at your place.
Now as to what to talk about at dinner and how to discover your bad-*ss conversationalist that is lurking just under the surface of your skin, ready to break out and devour the hotties, sign up for a Conversation Camp with me, your host, Wayne Elise. We just put up a few new cities: Ann Arbor and San Francisco among them, which coincidentally are great restaurant cities. Bon Appetite!
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November 4th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
A very interesting article - it even goes against what I’ve heard two other guys in CA advise… I have to ask, what’s your policy on paying?
November 13th, 2008 at 4:13 am
What I want to know, Wayne. Is why you never come to D.C.? It’s a pretty major city, and not to mention the nation’s capitol. Why do we get no love? I would love to attend one of your talks, but unfortunately it would require buying a plane ticket or driving hundreds of miles. Like Barack Obama says… it’s time for Wayne to come to DC… er somethin like that.
November 13th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Yeah Dex,
Good to hear from you. I think its all the context. If you don’t shine at dinner and are doing it in the typical way you might want to avoid it. But if you like creating your own dinner theater fun than I say go for it.
November 13th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Sincere,
Thanks for the comment. You’re right. I have to get out there to DC. I love the town… the girls, the dinosaurs, the girls who act like dinosaurs. I’m kidding of course. DC people are good people. Its the land of moving trucks right now though. I’m thinking of hitting it up in January. Hopefully you’re around then. I’m going to do that ultimate talk.
November 16th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Wayne, you didn’t answer Dex’s question, to which, I too, am curious about.
November 16th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
faith makes a good point.
Actually, I find that most girls who I take out will always offer to pay their half (or more), and often won’t give me a chance to cover it.
If I do feel like covering it (frequent flyer points for every dollar I spend on my credit card!), it’s always like “Tell you what, let me get this and you can get the drinks in the cocktail lounge”
But I was curious for what Juggler would do, not what Dex would do. WWJD.
November 16th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Hey Guys,
Sorry I missed the question.
This can depend on the women of course but in my experience, these days it can almost be interpreted as a bad sign if a woman won’t let you pay for dinner. I think its almost like they don’t want to feel obligated to you.
I wish I could give you some revolutionary idea here but I would generally follow a similar format as Dex and say, “I’ll get this one and you can pay for the ice cream.”
Since we are going back to my place to watch a movie and eat ice cream, this makes sense in that context.
In the whole scheme of things however, I would recommend avoiding expensive dinner. I think many guys do the bribe date, where they just offer to take her to a ten star restaurant so that she is more likely to accept the invitation. But I would like to see guys making spending the time together and the personality that the guy has the selling point not the restaurant.
That is why I like saying, “I’d like to see you again.” Then she says, “Yeah I would like that.” And then set up the particulars. So you get her committing on YOU first, not on the restaurant. I think many guys do this backwards and then they end up going to expensive restaurants with girls under false-pretense.
The general rule of thumb is to keep it cheap so that neither person feels obligated or bad if nothing comes of it.
Really, I like Sushi dates. Two California rolls and a bottle of warm Sake - $20. Making each other laugh and making out in the street - priceless.
November 17th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
I personally hate dinner dates.
Now, I can’t and won’t try to attempt to convince you otherwise to my point of view because that is not what my goal is.
My goal is to simply explain why I hate it.
Now you may think that, well I maybe cheap. Not at all. I’ve been to both sides of the spectrum since I started on my journey into the community and my mentality on this is, you get what you put in.
Simple as that.
You’ll never get a Lamborghini for $4000 right?
You get what you put in.
So why do I hate dinner dates? For this, I simply think in buckets. This goes beyond all the PUA mentality that most of the guys here follow religiously.
I simply won’t allow myself to fall in the same bucket of chumps/dudes who has done the same thing with her in the past. I always assume that a typical girl has had a bad dinner date in the past before I came along and I don’t want to be in the same bucket that she’ll file me in before the date even starts.
Do you want to be placed in the same bucket as the last guy that talked over her all the time?
Do you want to be placed in the same bucket as the last guy that “forgot his wallet?”
Do you want to be placed in the same bucket as the guy who tried to “make his move” with the finesse of gorilla?
What ties this all in? A dinner date.
I don’t know about you, but I personally don’t want to be in the same bucket as these guys.
Does a dinner date really make you stand out? Is that what you presented to her the first time you met at the club or that social event?
Me? I get dates because of the true value I present. I’ve been working on my art for the past year to launch my comic book company. I’ve been practicing with my band and play small venues for the past 6 months now.
The guy that they see is a guy who’s very creative, playful yet sincere. If I set up a date that’s not congruent to who I am, I already lose points before the date starts.
So no dinner dates for me. It’s boring, it’s not creative.
A “day 2″ or a date is about building memories. Good memories. Memories about me playing my ukulele for her at my condo or doing a tandem indoor skydive with her as a grab her hands and let the wind blow through my hair.
And then there’s my Wii.
Make yourself stand out. Don’t mediocre.
Reserve the dinner date after you had sex with her or at least made out with her.
November 17th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Hey Stone,
Thanks for the comment. Sure do whatever you like. Maybe dinner dates aren’t for you. Maybe you shine in other venues. But you sell dinner way short.
Your slogan is ‘Make yourself stand out. Don’t be mediocre.’ I would re-title your comments: ‘Make yourself weird. Don’t be sexual.’
Your ’standing out’ argument is flawed. You presume the venue is doing the ’standing out’ work. That need to get the venue to do what you should be doing with your interpersonal skills is systemic of not using an SOI when you meet women. This is typical of guys doing ‘flash’ game and forcing numbers without clearly articulating their sexual intention. (not saying you are doing that personally, of course)
When you go on the date you should have her already on the same page where she knows it is possibly sexual, physical and/or romantic. That’s why you SOI before hand so you don’t have to waste time on anything that would be construed as a ‘buddy’ thing. Unfortunately many of the dates you described will be thought of as buddy things by most women. Chicks just don’t have time for that and the ones that do are not into you in a sexual way.
Compare that to dinner dates. No one goes on dinner dates unless its a ‘date’ with possible hook up afterwords. That is the unwritten code of dating. (although I have just written it here, ha) In the case of a dinner date, being typical and familiar is a GOOD thing. And that is what more guys need to go on - real dates where the woman is on board with something exciting possibly happening. Not platonic, confusing, murky meet ups where the girl feels its weird and either flakes or just doesn’t see it in a sexual way.
No offense but if you invite a girl to check out your comic book collection she will think that its weird and your intentions are murky. If you ask her to go skydiving she will expect to go to dinner after. And then you are in the same boat. ha. If you don’t go for food after she will think that the date is platonic and that ends with a handshake.
Yes dinner is typical. There is a reason it is typical. Girls and guys have been hooking up after dinner for ages. It’s actually a good typical thing to do, just as making out is a typical thing to do and I don’t think you want to replace making out with something strange and different.
The reason the dinner date has gotten a bad rap in the community is that guys get numbers under false pretenses by forcing it or saying, “We’ll hang out sometime.” Yeah, under those circumstance you can’t do dinner because dinner is clearly and typically a precursor to hooking up. I say go with that rather than try to invent some new event that she is not going to associate with hooking up.
Now that doesn’t mean you can’t go do some other things like hiking and listening to your music but if you miss eating together you are missing a good ‘typical’ thing to do. Just don’t do it like the typical guy.
Also, you can have a low-budget dinner date at a Sushi restaurant for pretty cheap and you don’t have to pay for her as well if the date doesn’t work out. So the cost is not a factor.
Guys, go hiking first or iceskating or whatever you want but make sure to include food, a table, a server and all the advantages that entails. Food is foreplay.
What makes you stand out in a sexual way is not making weird or oddball choices that fly in the face of a woman’s expectation for the mating dance but rather articulating yourself as an interesting person and being able to escalate along the mating dance. It’s not ‘what you do’ but rather ‘how you do what you do’ that will score you attraction points. Don’t waste your time fighting institutions that are set up to assist the mating dance. Learn to use them to your advantage.
November 17th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
No offense to you Wayne but I am deep in the trenches here.
I’ve been actively dating for the past three years. I’m not attached on paper. I know what works and what doesn’t work, at least for me.
And if I were to ask for a simple demographic, let’s say the Asian man, if they ever get anywhere with that first dinner date, please raise your right hand and prove me wrong.
The basic Asian noob would barely get a kiss on the cheek even with a ton of SOI’s. I beg every guy reading this to do that in San Jose and tell me honestly if you got anywhere with it.
I’m not white or tall like you. I don’t have your handsome good looks or perfect teeth. Dinner at a restaurant? That never fully worked for an Asian guy like me. I can’t play your “good looking white guy” game. I have crooked teeth to boot.
So for me instead, I have to use what I have and isn’t that what you’ve advocated all along?
Haven’t you always pushed for showing your true self? Showing what you’re passionate about? Dude, I have your “Welcome to the Parker” episode recorded where you talk about discussing your passions. So I don’t understand why you don’t think displaying my “comic book collection” (I don’t have any, I’m starting a comic book publishing company) is “weird & murky.”
To me, by the time my date and I get to me displaying my true inner worth, like my “comic book collection” at my place, the battle is almost half done.
She’s with me right now at my place so she already knows what the precursor might be.
I never presumed the “venue will make me stand out.” That’s just a false BT spike of Demonstrating False High Value. What I hoped you understood was, “the quality of the moment” will make me stand out, which shows my true value of being consistent and of quality.
I never saw my nontraditional dates as “creating an event.” I call it immersing her in my world or me in hers and isn’t this something you also have pushed for too?
Dude, if I actually performed with my band at some bar, that’s not creating an event. That’s showing who I truly am. If she’s a dive instructor, I’ll ask her if she can give me a free lesson. Again, this goes against the grain of the community but wasn’t the community created to go against the grain of what the norm is anyway?
Dinner at a restaurant. I ask myself, “Will this make me a quality guy? Does it build social connections? Does it build any value when it comes to building moments? Does that separate me from the other guys that have asked her for dinner before?
Now I’m not saying dinner didn’t get anyone anywhere. It does work to a certain degree but for the right types of people. Heck there’s this one girl I went for 4 dinners in before I got laid.
However, I felt like it never fully worked for me. It wasn’t a quality moment that my girl and I can look back and reminisce about.
I know dinners are typical. I agree with you that with familiarity breeds comfort. But again, didn’t you also advice about pushing the envelope and going with something more dangerous and atypical?
You should only see the girls I’m friends with when a guy calls them up to ask for a dinner and a date. Their eyes roll-up and give a “whatever” type of tone.
Yes, I do have girls I call friends and this goes against the grain of the community as well. But understand that, without the female perspective, how will I truly know what I’m doing is correct?
My dates aren’t about dinners and maybe with me commenting on your article as such might make it look like I’m pissing on your fire.
Trust me, I’m not.
I’m simply giving a different Asian male perspective, that’s all.
November 17th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Okay, Stone, we will have to just disagree on this. But I have to call you out on the teeth. If you think I have perfect teeth, you have not seen my teeth very well.
November 17th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
I mean this in a very hetero way.
You’re a handsome dude. Tall. Women would assume immediately you have a big swinging cock aight? That’s just how it is.
You’re more blessed than I am in the looks department.
I’m not hitting on you.
December 6th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Hey Wayne, I was wondering if you could reveal a few more of these dinner date games. I’d feel more secure with a larger arsenal to compliment my character. On the off chance that the story-making fails one night, having alternatives to interview-mode would be much appreciated.
Mmhmm, I’d sell my cat for some California rolls right now.
Thanks,
Schnoopy
December 8th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Interesting. Maybe it depends on what type of women you are dating as well. College girls, for example, are different than girls in their early 30s.
I wouldn’t absolutely dismiss the dinner dates Stone. I used to do things your way but, I get off work at 5:45, and I am hungry. And I have a lot of dates. I like to eat out- so eating with women is a logical date. I do it because I want to. Really, my major point is- If your game is tight, you can have a blast gaming her while eating together.
You do cool fun stuff on your dates. Great.
Keep in mind that success and whether or not you eat with a woman has nothing to do with your race or Wayne’s teeth.
**Believing you have to run game different because you are Asian is CRIPPLING though! There are really just too many awesome Asian PUAs out there to debate on this.
1. I’m Asian.
2. I get laid. Alot.
3. My cock is swinging.
I do like to have them come pick me up for day2, immediate quick kiss with the hello is standard (is that SOI or kino?); show them the place quick, and then back to it after dinner.
And I still get laid. Eating together is ok. Even for Asians.
I expect to buy dinner on day2s when I am the one who approached them and eventually asked them to join me- under these circumstances, paying for the meal is natural as a part of leading the interaction. I don’t even think twice about it. Lots of times they offer to help with the bill. How I respond just depends.
If they ask me to dinner, or to join them at the bar for a drink, they generally expect to buy… pretty straight forward.
I am open, honest, I lead, I put it out there, I own it… I LOVE SOIs… and guess what types of girls respond well to this behavior? My flakes have plummeted over this past year. Thanks Wayne!
-Eric.